Space Digest Mon, 9 Aug 93 Volume 17 : Issue 003 Today's Topics: "Kit Rockets/Launchers" and how!? ** FTP site of ASTRO images ** Buran Hype? (was Re: DC-X Prophets and associated problems) DC-X Do astronauts use sleeping pills? (2 msgs) Goals for NASA! Plan/Timeline! Malin Space SS Mars Observer's First Photo (MEDIA WANTS DIGITAL IMAGES!) Sea/Ocean/Floating Launchers! Space/Sleeping/Rhythem/Outgassing! Space Digest V16 space news from July 5 AW&ST (2 msgs) Space Port Alaska/Poker Flats! Titan IV failure. Info? (2 msgs) Voyager: Where to get Info? (2 msgs) Why the Shuttle will never be popular. Welcome to the Space Digest!! Please send your messages to "space@isu.isunet.edu", and (un)subscription requests of the form "Subscribe Space " to one of these addresses: listserv@uga (BITNET), rice::boyle (SPAN/NSInet), utadnx::utspan::rice::boyle (THENET), or space-REQUEST@isu.isunet.edu (Internet). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Aug 1993 23:39:28 GMT From: Mark R Kaehny Subject: "Kit Rockets/Launchers" and how!? Newsgroups: sci.space Re: BD-10 jet plane kit Just up at Oshkosh for the Experimental Aircraft Association convention and saw the first working model of the BD-10 (A homebuild supersonic jet.) They said they had at least 4 orders for them during the convention. (Not for the faint hearted -- it is a kit!!) Maybe more will come of this than the last Bede project, but to me if this can be done a home built orbital vehicle can't be too far behind. The tremendous technology and craft that go into these homebuilt airplanes is awesome. By the way, I did hear Mr. Gaublatz say that he would love to bring the DC-X or the Delta Clipper to Oshkosh someday and land it on the runway. I hope it happens in my lifetime. Mark Kaehny kaehny@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1993 20:10:47 GMT From: "Michael H. Warfield" Subject: ** FTP site of ASTRO images ** Newsgroups: sci.astro,sci.space,alt.binaries.pictures.misc I hate to PICK NITS but... In <240jeq$iuk@news.univ-rennes1.fr> rousself@univ-rennes1.fr ( Frank ROUSSEL ) writes: >I commend everybody to look at the FTP site 'ftp.univ-rennes1.fr' >-> Ethernet address 129.20.128.2 <- ^^^^^^^^ This is an Internet Address NOT an Ethernet Address. >2nd note: this site is reachable by Gopher at 'roland.univ-rennes1.fr' > -> Ethernet address 129.20.128.27 <- ^^^^^^^^ And again. To some this may be a minor quible but for most of us, the real ethernet address would be less than useless. Calling an IP (Internet Protocol) address an Ethernet address (Which is a MAC Layer address) is confusing at best. Mike -- Michael H. Warfield | (404) 925-8248 | mhw@WittsEnd.atl.ga.us (The Mad Wizard) | NIC whois: MHW9 | wittsend!mhw@emory.edu An optimist believes we live in the best of all possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1993 19:18:57 GMT From: 11086 Subject: Buran Hype? (was Re: DC-X Prophets and associated problems) Newsgroups: sci.space In article <22s80c$9nj@access.digex.net> prb@access.digex.net (Pat) writes: >In article <1993Jul23.103403.1@fnalf.fnal.gov> higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes: >> >>We can conclude from this that it would be *very* interesting to learn >>what the claims were when developers were "selling" the Buran project >>within the Soviet bureaucracy. Alas, I don't think our chances of > > >At least in Space News, there have been sideways references >to Buran being hyped on the basis of the space shuttle. > >The statements were, THe americans are building Spaceski Shuttleski. >It will fly over, steal satellittes with Bay and canadarm and >drop nuclear bombs on moscow. > >around about 1986, the ruissians caught on the STS was not >a ahppening thing. by 1989, it was obvious Buran wasn't either. A couple of years back I was fortunate enough (at Goddard Space Flight Center) to hear a speech by the director of the Soviet space program. (I can't remember his name, unfortunately.) He made to statements that amused us all greately (the quotes are certainly not exact, but make the point): 1) "While we were developing Buran, we kept asking 'What is its mission?' We were told 'the American's have built one and they are very smart, so it must have a mission.'" 2) "Gorbechov (sorry, I can't spell) tried to impress Reagan when he introduced me to him by saying 'He is close friends with many American scientists, such as Carl Sagan!' I don't think he understood American scientific politics very well." ------------ My opinions are my own Jim West Associate Professor Electrical and Computer Engineering Oklahoma State University jwest@jwest.ecen.okstate.edu ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 93 16:38:15 GMT From: "Theodore F. Vaida ][" Subject: DC-X Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Aug4.233308.14622@ke4zv.uucp>, gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes: [...deleted...] >As Bill Clinton promised on the campaign trail, "Every American >should have above average income, and my Administration is going >to see they get it." > >The poverty line today has been raised higher than my middle >class income of 1966. The most insidious kind of poverty is >when the government debases the currency so it can "give" you >a hand up. > Dont forget inflation, farmers want inflation, investors want inflation... the grubbymint wants inflation... If you were to calculate the 'povertly line' versus inflation, you are probably still right about the fact that the number has risen, but also look at the cost of living index, which has risen faster (albeit not much faster, fractional percentage points) than inflation all by itself would suggest. Consider that any child that does not have access to a computer before she reaches the age of 15 is peranently and most likely extremely dissadvantaged in the working world today (hell, even MacDonalds has those new fangled cash registers that require THREE WEEKS OF TRAINING!, put that in your funk and wangners!) -- ---------==============Sig file cover sheet=====================--------- ->POLAR CAPS<- or tfv0@lehigh.edu Pages including this page: 1 ----- "One must not confuse John Donne's famous quote `No man is an Island' with New York Telephone's `We're all connected'" - Dad ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 1993 20:04:10 GMT From: Josh Hopkins Subject: Do astronauts use sleeping pills? Newsgroups: sci.space c.o.egalon@larc.nasa.gov (Claudio Egalon) writes: >Sometime ago, I read an interview given by Byron >Lichtemberg, who flew the Shuttle twice as a Payload >Specialist, and, according to the interview, he >complained that it was very difficult to sleep in >the Shuttle because of all the noise in the >Shuttle due to the pumps that must be functioning >all the time to keep the spacecraft "habitable". Sleeping can be problematic, not only because of the noise and the excitment but also because some crews have their sleep cycles shifted around for the flight. However, some astronauts have said that they work so hard during the day that they can't stay awake. You don't 'nod off' in zero gravity, you just sort of fall asleep in place. It can get annoying because there's no signal from the internal balance system to wake you up. I know that the Skylab astronauts complained of machine noise disturbing their sleep. This caused the contractors involved in the Freedom habitation design (Boeing and Grumman?) to put some effort into seperating the astronauts' rooms away from most of the experiments and noisy areas. The more recent designs achieved this with less mass by eliminating the astronauts rooms and most of the experiments :( I've heard that the original schedule for Apollo 11 called for the astronauts to sleep right after landing. Reason prevailed. -- Josh Hopkins jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu He who laughs last probably didn't get the joke. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 01:22:08 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Do astronauts use sleeping pills? Newsgroups: sci.space In article <243m7q$30t@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh Hopkins) writes: >I've heard that the original schedule for Apollo 11 called for the astronauts >to sleep right after landing. Reason prevailed. Not just the original schedule -- the final schedule! When it actually came time for it, of course, the astronauts said they didn't feel sleepy and Houston agreed to skip the sleep period. -- "Every time I inspect the mechanism | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology closely, more pieces fall off." | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 04:10:43 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Goals for NASA! Plan/Timeline! Newsgroups: sci.space In article szabo@netcom.com (Nick Szabo) writes: >Plans and Timelines pursuing obsolete, bizarrely expensive goals were >what got us into this mess in the first place. Partly. The lack of plans and timelines pursuing realistic goals has done the rest of the job. Not having any idea of where you're headed is as bad as having an unrealistic one -- it means that successes are not followed up, any setback re-starts the frantic scramble for priority among a hundred advocacy groups for specific missions, and little new technology gets developed because no one mission can justify it. If this sounds like the way NASA's solar-system exploration has been conducted of late, that's no accident. Whatever one thinks of Apollo, it *did* impose a great deal of order on the exploration of the Moon, and a lot got done fairly quickly. Surprises were handled in an orderly way, setbacks were dealt with promptly, and the primary objective was met. If one is setting out to explore the solar system (just who should be setting out to do that is another issue), there is a lot to be said for being organized about it. -- "Every time I inspect the mechanism | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology closely, more pieces fall off." | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 93 04:48:27 GMT From: "S.H." Subject: Malin Space SS Newsgroups: sci.space In article <2421gt$qm2@pravda.sdsc.edu> u1452@sluggo.sdsc.edu (Jeff Bytof - SIO) writes: >[response to S.H., a fellow Triton]: >From sdcc12!network.ucsd.edu!pravda.sdsc.edu!sluggo.sdsc.edu!u1452 Sun Aug 8 18:51:42 PDT 1993 Article: 64384 of sci.space Path: sdcc12!network.ucsd.edu!pravda.sdsc.edu!sluggo.sdsc.edu!u1452 From: u1452@sluggo.sdsc.edu (Jeff Bytof - SIO) Newsgroups: sci.space Subject: Malin Space SS Message-ID: <2421gt$qm2@pravda.sdsc.edu> Date: 8 Aug 93 05:04:29 GMT Organization: San Diego SuperComputer Center @ UCSD ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hope this is not an insult. May I ask this: "Are you a staff of SDSC or an *user* ? " >>>just 400 km (248 mi) above the surface on Nov. 22. The Mars >>Observer Camera was developed by and is operated under contract ^^^^^^^^ >>>to Jet Propulsion Laboratory by an industry/university team led ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>by Malin Space Science Systems, San Diego, Calif. >> Name of the University ? > Probably Arizona State University - as far as I know UC San Diego > has no personnel on the staff whatsoever. May I ask: "How about you? " "What is you connection to the UCSD supercomputer center ?" Regarding what you mentioned about Arizona State U., I believe I did saw on the TV - The Discovery Channel a month ago, on a program "Beyond 2000", shown that, U.K. was sending people to Arizona State University to `survey' technology. Here are some facts : " Inserting a chip into a human brain has the same effect as inserting a person into a Site. The sound effect is the same. " " When people from the same university are `programmed' to be fighting each other, the third party receives the beef. " " To use Americans to *treat* Americans, is one of QMW/ U.K.'s way. " " There are examples, I have seen at QMW - Queen Mary Westfield College_London_u.k._Plus_its_associates_Plus_lots of people from this net." " Similar models are: using students to "treat" students; using like_ones to *treate* like_ones. " Now days, many people would be willing to work as long as they get paid. > -rabjab, AstroZionist Donkey Driver ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Above is your signature. Who are the Donkey? Students? Make sure that yourself are not driven by somebody from *companies* like United_K, U_KGB,U_KKK, from whom coming here to`survey' high tech or militry security_codes. This had been *their* `culture'. This was how their science and country was built upon - built upon somebody else's minds, labors and bloods. A week ago, they had copied all my computer files stored in the comuter network which was connected to the sun_workstation, by a very improper means. My work matters not, many of my files was stored on my own PC. But! they could do this to anyone, to any organization. It did not matter who did it, some group starting from QMW/U.K. were the directors for this whole Show! They were using other people and their force to increase their own power. It would be interesting to have the biography for the following persons: Ron Baak__ ( JPL ) Henery Spencer ( From this net ) Leedham_Green from QMW_U.K. Steve Schwartz from QMW_U.K. A.H. Roger from QMW.U.K. I will forward A.H. Roger's news articles posted lately at sci.math newsgroup. If NASA, JPL and the whole world is driven by these people from u.k., this is going to be a tragedy! A.H. Roger is only a speaker. There are people behind him, who were directing this whole show. Another important issue of all. Why had so many people got involved and been used for this ...? Who were behind them? I believe originally that I was complaining about a group of mathematicians from QMW_via_Cambridge_u.k. false made a claim that they had proved a famous 350 old mathematical problem to elude the public for the purpose to promote their software products, for their other ambitions. Why did they not admit *their* behaviors ? Why did they keep increasing their powers? What did they want? To re_draw another atlas? H.S. H.S. | ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 1993 21:21:40 GMT From: Carl J Lydick Subject: Mars Observer's First Photo (MEDIA WANTS DIGITAL IMAGES!) Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary In article <1993Aug8.170142.1@vax1.tcd.ie>, apryan@vax1.tcd.ie writes: =Ron Baalke mentioned images could be released by scientists earlier =than the 6 month period at their discretion. = =Seems to me that these images were pure 'publicity' shots. There can't =be that much scientific merit, certainly not compared to ultimate resolution =M.O. is capable of. Maybe, maybe not. Early images are used as part of the "science verification" phase of a mission. This phase checks out spacecraft systems under actual operating conditions, as opposed to both the theoretical operation of the systems and the operation during ground tests. There could, conceivably, be a potential paper or two based on the SV phase. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL Disclaimer: Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS. That's what I get paid for. My understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). So unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 03:58:40 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: Sea/Ocean/Floating Launchers! Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Aug7.204300.1@aurora.alaska.edu> nsmca@aurora.alaska.edu writes: >What ever happened to the project/idea of using the sea or a lake based system >of launching rockets, and then use something like modified Polarises (or >Polaris 2?).. Water launch is an idea that gets revived periodically. The latest version is using the Russian equivalent of Polaris. >Also what about the idea someone once had, c.1939 or so, of a floating launch >pad. Kind of like a oil derrick... This has never looked to have enough advantages over working from land to be worth the trouble, at least not for large rockets. The San Marco launch facility for Scout, off the coast of Kenya, proves it can work. -- "Every time I inspect the mechanism | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology closely, more pieces fall off." | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1993 22:01:26 GMT From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu Subject: Space/Sleeping/Rhythem/Outgassing! Newsgroups: sci.space Sleep in space.. The Cycasion(sp) rythem is the human cycle of sleep, and wake.. Im sure some people can wake up (grin) in space, even in zero-G.. I would thing the major problems of space sleeping, is silyva, and other fluids, outgasing and such.. There is a few that peopel do on earth.. Such as my mouth waters, and if I'm facing down (earth), I have a habit of drueling, would I instead choke in space? Also I know some peopel fart in their sleep, or the odd urinate in their sleep (not common for most that I know, and I don't do it, unless Im to drunk to care).. What if an astronaut is sick and has to upchuck? Vaccumm suction (I had heard about this).. Michael Adams NSMCA@ACAD@.ALASKA.EDU I'm not high, just jacked ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1993 01:03:18 -0700 (MST) From: Stephen Scheufler Subject: Space Digest V16 Risk Management/Safety Services You bet your sweet bippy! Titan II made a big crater outside of Damascus, Arkansas, when an Air Force technician dropped a nine pound socket wrench. Seems like when the socket wrench fell the seven stories to the thrust mount below, it gathered enough inertia to puncture the first stage oxidizer tank on the first bounce. Several hours later the tank collapsed, oxidizer (N204) met fuel (UDMH) and the 450 ton concrete and steel Silo Closure Door went a quarter mile into the neighboring farmer's field. Needless to say, Titan II, whether man-rated or weapon, did not require a spark plug or any direct ignition source. With all apologies to Martin- Marrietta, Aerojet, and all the sainted aerospace pioneers, the engine thrust chambers were simply (highly) sophisticated shower heads. Sure, the engines' subassemblies require ordinance, the start cartridges, to generate enough pressure to begin the desired/controlled/sustained ignition for launch sequence, but after the Arkansas event I always considered it a controlled "explosion." If you're ever in Tucson, AZ, be sure to head south to Green Valley and take a look at the Copper Penny. It's one of the eighteen Titan II missile sites that used to ring Tucson. It has been re-opened, complete with an empty bird in the hole, by the Pima County Air Museum. The last time I was there, they also had either the stage I or stage II engine subassemblies on display. The bird is impressive but you have to see the underground support structures. Too bad you can't go below level two of the silo-- the view looking up from the flame deflector, the "W", was always my favorite. But at least you can see the silo closure door which should give you a better feel for what a two-staged booster powered by hypergolic fuels can quite literally "pick up and toss aside." -- Stephen 5-1823 Mail Code: 0804 In-Reply-To: note of 08/07/93 03:08 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 00:46:01 GMT From: "Gregory N. Bond" Subject: space news from July 5 AW&ST Newsgroups: sci.space In article (sci.space.news) henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: Lockheed has requested US government permission to talk to Australia about becoming an "anchor customer" for Lockheed's proposed 1m-resolution commercial remote-sensing satellite. The Australians are known to be interested. Any more detail? Which "Australians? I've not heard so much as a peep about this locally... Greg. -- Gregory Bond Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd Melbourne Australia I will not do it as a hack I will not do it for my friends I will not do it on a Mac I will not write for Uncle Sam I will not do it on weekends I won't do ADA, Sam-I-Am ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 01:18:45 GMT From: Henry Spencer Subject: space news from July 5 AW&ST Newsgroups: sci.space In article <1993Aug9.004601.8087@bby.com.au> gnb@bby.com.au (Gregory N. Bond) writes: > Lockheed has requested US government permission to talk to Australia > about becoming an "anchor customer" for Lockheed's proposed 1m-resolution > commercial remote-sensing satellite. The Australians are known to be > interested. > >Any more detail? Which "Australians? I've not heard so much as a peep >about this locally... You're in luck, I still have that issue handy... Says here "a working group has been formed under the direction of the South Australia Economic Development Authority to study [the idea]... includes the Australian Space Council, the country's Defense Dept. and the Land Information Group..." -- "Every time I inspect the mechanism | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology closely, more pieces fall off." | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 00:46:11 GMT From: nsmca@ACAD3.ALASKA.EDU Subject: Space Port Alaska/Poker Flats! Newsgroups: sci.space Finally found the article on "Poker Flats" the University run Lauch site in Alaska, owned by the University of Alaska, NASA, and the Geophysical Institute of Alaska.. So far its done mostly sub-orbital atmospheric research, namely into the Northern Lights, and other generally northern atmospheric phenonomins. But of late it has been suggested by the state government, that it might be a great place to do orbital launches.. especially since "Poker Flats" has little to do with the military, so there fore scientific/commericial launches can be doen without interferance with military priorities.. Since at Vandenburg, and other launch sites, military payloads seem to have priority, which not a great way to endear yourself to commericial payload providers.. So send email to me, and I'll try to get you all more info on "Poker Flats" "Space Port Alaska" "The Alaska Aerospace Development Corporation" Michael Adams NSMCA@ACAD@.ALASKA.EDU I'm not high, just jacked ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1993 23:15:52 GMT From: Greg Cronau Subject: Titan IV failure. Info? Newsgroups: sci.space In article <23tcunINNcrg@swan.doc.ic.ac.uk>, Mike C Holderness wrote: > >Isn't is also military policy to blow up anything sensitive, in case >the Other Side decide to do a re-make of _Moonraker_? > >(Who gets to play the Russian who plays Howard Hunt?) > >(Younger readers -- Moonraker was the Bond film fictionalising the attempt to > salvage a sunken Soviet submarine. Older readers -- correct me if my > memory's failed me.) > Heh. Sounds like it's time for you to enter the old usenet reader's home. Your memory is failing you on at least 3 points: 1.) _Moonraker_ was the Bond film wherein they steal a space shuttle from the back of it's 747 carrier, by *igniting the main engines*! (ack, ack) 2.) Sometime in the 70's the US government used a ship called the _Glomar Explorer_ to attempt to salvage a russion submarine. It wasn't fiction, it really *did* happen. 3.) The Glomar Explorer was owned by Howard *Hughs*, not Hunt. --- Greg Cronau | gregc@edi.com (Pref.) |"Those who cannot remember Computer Consultant/Joat | gregc@clif.ypsi.mi.us | the past, are doomed to 1405 NorthBrook Drv. | 76407,2311 (CI$) | repost it every month." Ann Arbor MI. 48103-6166 | 313-741-0748 | -- Ed Vielmetti ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 02:40:32 GMT From: Frank Crary Subject: Titan IV failure. Info? Newsgroups: sci.space In article gregc@cyberspace.org (Greg Cronau) writes: >2.) Sometime in the 70's the US government used a ship called the _Glomar > Explorer_ to attempt to salvage a russion submarine. It wasn't fiction, > it really *did* happen. >3.) The Glomar Explorer was owned by Howard *Hughs*, not Hunt. As far as I know, the Glomar Explorer is owned by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute and the Institute was never owned by Howard Hughs. Frank Crary CU Boulder ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 1993 03:27:46 GMT From: Dead Head Subject: Voyager: Where to get Info? Newsgroups: sci.space I am interested in information on the Voyager spacecraft itself, as opposed to all the wonderful .GIF images and data that it produced. I'm especially interested in what exactly is on the "gold record" which was attached to the spacecraft, as well as any pictures and descriptions of the construction of the spacecraft. (No, I'm not thinking of building one in my back yard #8-) Thanks, -- - Kevin Lowey (Kevin.Lowey@USask.CA) >>>>> Anonymous FTP to FTP.USASK.CA for DOS, OS/2, and Windows programs <<<<< I'VE BEEN THROUGH HELL!!! --- (Elvis says "Hello" ...) ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 1993 04:08:56 GMT From: Eric Shafto Subject: Voyager: Where to get Info? Newsgroups: sci.space Dead Head (lowey@jester.usask.ca) wrote: : I am interested in information on the Voyager spacecraft itself, as : opposed to all the wonderful .GIF images and data that it produced. : I'm especially interested in what exactly is on the "gold record" : which was attached to the spacecraft, as well as any pictures and : descriptions of the construction of the spacecraft. The story of the record is told well in a book by Carl Sagan called _Murmurs from Earth_. -- *Eric Shafto * The excursion is the same when you go looking * *Institute for the * for your sorrow as when you go looking for * * Learning Sciences * your joy. * *Northwestern University * Eudora Welty, The Wide Net * ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 1993 18:31:20 -0400 From: Pat Subject: Why the Shuttle will never be popular. Newsgroups: sci.space I happened to get a ride with the Mother figure, today. while we were driving, a winnebago passed us at a high rate of speed. She asked me "Are those winnebago's any good?" i replied "They are an oxy-moron. A mobile home? Houses have an implication of stability and permanence. a car is fast and manuevarable" her reply was "If they are a contradiction in terms, how come it went so fast?". my reply was "The operator was insane". essentially that is the problem with the STS. WInnebago's are not real popular for a number of reasons. THey don't make good cheap housing (Like house trailers). they are clunky and gorky in wilderness areas. They don't drive real well (Compared to any sports car). They don't have the energy effeciency of real homes. Yet they are popular among a small subset of recreational travelers. I'd bet more people go camping then use RV's. They have capabilities most campers and outdoorsmen don't care for. they cost a lot per trip,etc.etc, etc...... I think the STS is the winnebago of rockets. THe SV was a racing tractor. THe Soyuz is a VW. the ARiane is a Renault. NASP is a Jaguar. now who'se going to build the chevy? MDA? pat -- I don't care if it's true. If it sounds good, I will publish it. Frank Bates Publisher Frank Magazine. ------------------------------ End of Space Digest Volume 17 : Issue 003 ------------------------------